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Austen: That's how it is for me though. I feel like I think about things. I think about things for a long time. But on that note, I guess it's time to start this podcast, huh? Hello, everybody, and welcome to "Bundle of Hers." I am Austen. I'm one of the new hosts this season. And joining me today is my sister, Cailin.

Cailin: Howdy.

Austen: Howdy indeed. Tell us a little bit about yourself. I mean, obviously we're sisters, but what does that mean? Paint a picture for our listeners for 30-ish seconds.

Cailin: I am younger than Austen by almost year. We're the same age for six days. And so we grew up super close. We're so different though. My motto is live, laugh, love. I say it 20 times a day. I enjoy long walks on the beach, sunrises, and hanging out with my family.

Austen: Just as you said, we're so close in age and we have so many shared experiences and also identities, but we are still very distinct individuals, and I thought it would be fun for us to come and talk about how those different experiences have shaped us both and led me down the path that I'm on today. So I'm excited for this episode and I'm so happy that I get to talk to you.

Cailin: Major slay.

The Role of Sisterhood in Shaping Identity

Austen: Major slay. So we're going to be focusing on maintaining authenticity with evolving identities. I feel like growing and evolving is part of the human experience. Something that I've thought about a lot is how my different experiences and the evolution of my identities affect my authenticity as an individual.

And I feel like growing up, a big part of my identity was being a sister. I mean, it still is, but I feel like especially when I was younger. And I think because that was such a large part of my identity . . . I mean, I wasn't the oldest, but I was the second oldest and there are six of us. And so there were a lot of people that I felt like I was in charge of, even if that wasn't the case. But I think that definitely influenced how I thought about a lot of things and how I interacted with the world around me.

I remember in high school feeling responsible for a lot of different things, even if I wasn't. But I feel like my role as a sister, my perception of what that really meant maybe not changed, but I feel like redefined in high school when you got sick.

For those who don't know you, which is the vast majority of the people listening to this podcast, do you want to share a little bit about that experience? If you're comfortable, if you're willing.

Cailin's ÑÇÖÞ×ÔοÊÓƵ Journey

Cailin: I am very comfortable and willing. I am an open book. So it was, what, 2012? It was around Easter. I remember this because there was a quote from "Nacho Libre." "I have had diarrhea since Easters." And I just got hit with diarrhea, but it was blood in my stool. And for months I was experiencing this. Other than that, I wasn't experiencing any pain.

I mean, I wasn't experiencing a lot of abdominal pain. I was like, "Yeah, I'm just kind of bleeding every day." And my parents were like, "It's probably hemorrhoids." And it took a lot longer for us to take it more seriously, and then when it did get really serious, it happened kind of all at once. It was slowly and then all at once, and that was November of 2012.

I had to get picked up from school early. I couldn't walk up and down the stairs at school because I was so exhausted. And I walked into the nurse's office and before I even said anything, she goes, "I'm calling your mom right now. You look so pale."

And so she called my mom. My mom came and picked me up, and the next day I stayed in bed pretty much, but then I babysat. When I was babysitting, I ended up falling asleep on the couch, which I never did.

And then the next day, we were getting ready for church in the morning and I was fully dressed ready for church, and I got back into my bed fully dressed and laid down and I was like, "All right. I guess we've got to go to the hospital. This isn't right."

And then from there, they did a lot of tests. I had to get transferred to a different hospital. My first ambulance ride. I felt like a celebrity on the road. And then I got to the hospital and they were like, "Serious business, you're really sick." And I was like, "Okay, so fun is over. No more ambulance rides. I guess I'm here and we're doing some treatments." And that was the beginning of my journey.

Austen: You talking about that, I feel like I can be transported back to that so quickly. Yeah, things just kind of happened really fast. I mean, luckily we were able to figure out what was going on. I say we like it was you and I working on this, but . . .

Cailin: It was a joint effort, though. I think it was just such a crazy time for everyone, because yeah, I was the one who was sick, but everyone's life got flipped upside down.

The Emotional Impact of Illness on Family Dynamics

Austen: Yeah. And I feel like it was hard to see. I mean, I can't imagine how hard it was to be the patient in that situation. For me, I only have my perspective and my lived experiences to go off of, but it was really scary for me, being the older sister, not being able to do anything to help you, and trying not to add stress to Mom and Dad because they were worried and freaked out, and trying not to freak out and stress the little girls.

And so I feel like it was such an eye-opening experience for me because I feel like I went from just being an older sister who bossed you around . . . I went from that being my focus as an older sister to wanting to provide you with whatever support I could, which probably wasn't very much, and provide Mom and Dad with whatever support they needed.

But I think that experience was really transformative for me as far as my trajectory in medicine. Not to make your experience all about myself, but . . .

Cailin: No, let's do it.

Austen: But I feel like you had such a phenomenal care team. Your nurses were great. Your physicians were great. Everyone in the hospital was so wonderful and we knew that they were all doing what they could to help you. But as a loved one to someone who was sick, I felt the most comfort knowing that you had physicians who were actively looking for answers and suggesting different treatments and alternative treatments for when those didn't work.

I felt like the physicians weren't just part of your treatment team. They weren't just spearheading your physical treatment. They were providing us with hope and comfort and reassurance. And I think that really solidified for me that I wanted to do that for other people.

And that's something that I've talked about a lot when I was interviewing at different schools during the application season for med school. One of the most common questions that I got was, "Well, why do you want to be a doctor?" and I would talk about this experience. Yes, I've wanted to be a physician since I can't even remember. I don't know.

Cailin: Mom says since you were like 2.5.

Realizations About Identity as a Black Woman

Austen: Yeah, however old I was, I was like, "I want to be a doctor." But I think it was through that experience that I realized what being a doctor actually meant, and that there are so many different ways in which you can help a patient and you can support a patient.

But I think that experience really demonstrated to me just how unique the role of a physician is as far as providing families and patients alike with hope that things might change and hopefully things will get better.

But I guess another identity that I probably next became aware of, and I don't know if you feel the same, is my identity as a Black woman. As someone who is mixed, definitely I feel like that was underscored living where we've lived and growing up where we've grown up.

Cailin: One hundred percent. Growing up where we did in Maryland, it was a bubble as far as demographics go. It was pretty homogenous. I didn't necessarily realize the impact that it had on me until I got older. So it's probably very similar to you as well.

And then moving to Utah, which is also pretty homogenous, specifically going to school in Utah County, it almost feels as though that experience that we had growing up was just the Level 1 that was . . .

Austen: Yeah, like the trial round.

Cailin: Yeah. And it was beginner level and then almost overnight it was expert level and we're like, "Hold on a second. What's going on?"

Austen: Definitely. So for those listening, we are from a town in Maryland called Potomac. Maryland as a state is really diverse, and even the county which we grew up in, Montgomery County, is very diverse, but our town just happens to be a little less diverse than other places in Maryland. I think when you look up the demographics of Potomac, it's like 4% of the population was Black. At least it was when we were growing up.

And so being one of 4% is never fun. I feel like . . . I don't know. Just like you said, it was like you felt different, but you wanted to fit in. It was a weird place to be, especially as a kid and a teenager who . . . No teenager wants to feel different than the other teenagers around them.

The Struggle of Assimilation and Identity Formation

Cailin: No. And so you're spending hours with the wet-to-dry straightener because you don't know how to properly blow dry your hair and then you're frying your hair, and learning how to put on blush and contour your face a certain way to make you look a little bit more white.

That was what we were, I guess, trying to assimilate to. It was our whiteness as mixed kids and really trying to grasp onto that. I tried to put my whiteness before my blackness just so I could fit in more.

Austen: Which is sad, but I feel like you see that across so many different demographics. I feel like that happens with people of color and it happens with people who are immigrants. Not exactly the same thing, but I feel like it's this feeling that you want to be part of the in-group. You want to fit in. You want people to be like, "Oh, you're not different. You're like us. Come hang out with us."

I look back on younger Austen and I'm sure you look back on younger Cailin and you're thinking, "Well, that's kind of sad. That's really sad," because there is so much beauty and there are so many wonderful things that make us who we are that only come from us being mixed, that only come from us, yes, having a white mom, but also having a Black dad. There is so much to be enjoyed and celebrated in mixing both of those cultures and in sharing both of those identities.

And so I feel like growing up I felt a lot of times embarrassed that I was different and I just wanted to be like all of my tiny white friends, and I wanted to fit in so bad.

I feel like I got to college and, as you said, Utah County is not very diverse. So I went to BYU for undergrad, and the Black population at BYU is 1% of the student body. And so I went from an environment where Black people made up 4% of the population to a different environment where Black people only made up 1% of the population.

So I feel like it's interesting because I went to BYU, and towards the beginning of my time there, I again just wanted to fit in. I wanted to be just like everybody else and show everybody else I was just like them. But later on in my academic journey, I feel like I found strength in my individuality. I found strength and I felt empowered by my identity as a Black person.

Not something that you would think would happen at BYU, but I feel like I felt so different that it was like I couldn't deny it.

Cailin: It was one of those you had to either really embrace it or you had to just shove it so far down that . . .

Austen: Yeah. And I got to the point where it was like, "No. No matter what I do . . ." I could change my hair. I could change the way I talk, although this is how I talk, so I don't know if I would change it. I could change everything about myself that I possibly could and I would still be different.

I cannot change . . . I mean, within reason, right? I can't change my nose. I can't change my skin color. I can't change so many things about myself that do kind of . . .

Cailin: Set you apart.

Building Community and Finding Support

Austen: Set me apart. And so I think I got to the point where, yeah, I wanted to fit in, but then I realized, "Well, these are things about myself that I like and these are things that show where I came from. I shouldn't be embarrassed by that, and I shouldn't want to hide that."

I think being a minority in such an overwhelmingly majority environment pushed me to a point where I was like, "No, I'm going to embrace who I am and I'm going to surround myself with people who appreciate those differences and who are going to advocate for me and advocate for people who look like me, and I will do the same."

It's interesting because I could not have gone to a whiter school.

Cailin: Yeah, really.

Austen: I could not have gone to a whiter, more Republican school if I tried. But I ended up finding myself in such a wonderful community that was built around people who were empathetic, people who were willing to listen, people who might not have any of the same identities that I had, but who were willing to learn and wanted to help and support me. I feel like it didn't change.

And then I think moving up to Salt Lake, things have been a little bit different. Salt Lake and Salt Lake County is more diverse than Utah County, I feel like. But it's still . . . I mean, I'm one of three Black or African people in my medical school class, and we started off with 127 of us.

And so things still aren't great, but I again feel like I've been able to find people who are supportive and who are great allies and advocates, and I think that's kind of pushed me to try to be a better advocate for other people.

If I was waiting around for people who had the exact same identity as me to become my friends, I'd have two friends in medical school. It would be me and two others. But I have amazing friends, an amazing support system of people who don't have the same experiences, they don't get it, but they are willing to listen and they're willing to learn and they're willing to be there for me when I need support, in however that support looks like. And so it's been good.

It can still be isolating. Do not get it twisted. It can still be isolating, and I feel like people will still make stupid jokes and people will still say things that probably they shouldn't be saying. But I feel like I've had people in my chosen community show up, and that's more than I could have ever asked for.

Cailin: It's nice it's not so isolating even when . . . Not saying it's about me, but when I would walk in somewhere, like a restaurant or if I was going to a sporting event or what have you in Utah, I could always count how many other people looked like me. It makes you nervous. If something were to happen, would any of these people care about me? Would they be able to be like, "Oh, we need to look out for her as well"?

And then, yeah, being there with people who are like, "I got you. I don't know what you're going through, but I got you," that's nice. When you have them with you, you don't walk into those places feeling unsafe or feeling so alone. That's very nice to have especially going through medical school.

Austen: And I feel like that's something that's going to have to continue. I don't think it's going to stop outside of medical school.

If you look at the statistics, there aren't a ton of black physicians. And so I feel like no matter where I end up, building a community is going to be something that's . . . If I want friends, if I want to feel supported, I'm going to have to work on that and I think that's good.

I think if something's important to you, you spend time on it, right? And so this just gives me more opportunity to practice building my community and then also kind of re-conceptualizing how I view community to begin with.

I want to say I'm more intentional about the connections that I do make with people. Being in med school as a person of color and specifically as a Black person, it is just a preview of what's to come. I will continue to have to build community for myself, but then I think that gives me the opportunity to create a community that is more inclusive, create a community where people feel safe, seen, included, and supported, genuinely supported.

And so it can be isolating. I think any time you're in the out-group it's isolating. But I think for me it's helped me kind of reprioritize the interpersonal connections that I have and what I look for in the people that I surround myself with.

Cailin: Snaps, sister, snaps.

Empathy and Understanding Across Differences

Austen: Oh, oh, oh. But I guess one other portion of my identity that I feel like has influenced not only my path in medicine but just how I navigate life is my religious identity.

So as we briefly mentioned before, I went to BYU, which is a university that is owned, I guess, by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, commonly known as the Mormon Church. I feel like that has been an interesting identity to have, being a member of the church.

I feel like of all of the identities that I have . . . well, maybe not all, but most of the big identities I have feel very permanent. As long as I've been on this earth, I've been a sister. And as long as I'm on this earth, I will be a sister. And as long as I've been on . . .

Cailin: In both senses of the word.

Austen: In both senses, truly.

Cailin: She'll be a sista and she'll be a sister.

Austen: Yeah. A sister and a sista. But my religious identity is the one that feels like it would be more fluid. That is super evident by where I've been and how I've reacted to things at different times in my life.

Growing up, there aren't a ton of members of the Church on the East Coast or really outside of Utah, and so it was like us and a handful of other people in our high school of 2,400.

Cailin: Everyone at school knew who the Mormons were. We would show up to school in the same car because we had seminary in the morning. We had early morning seminary. And I remember passing someone and they'd be like, "Look at all those Mormons." I was like . . .

Austen: All seven of us.

Cailin: All seven of us.

Austen: Growing up, being a member of the Church, I was just like, "Cool. I love Jesus. I go to church on Sundays and I love the Lord," and that was kind of it. But then I think that changed coming to Utah, interestingly enough.

Utah is literally home base for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And I think in some regards, that's kind of what drew me to going to BYU because I felt like I would be surrounded by other people who go to the same church and we believe in the same things, and they won't care if I don't drink and whatever.

So I think in some ways that did help me feel more connected to other people. That was something that I could bond with them over, being religious. But then also I feel like how I lived my faith was maybe more intensely scrutinized by other people who were in the same religion, but then other people who weren't in the religion, but who were in the state.

So I feel like living in Utah has been interesting as a religious person, and I'm sure no matter what religion you believe in, there might be some criticism and scrutiny and stuff. But I've just been, I think, surprised by how much kind of judgment that I've received since living in Utah, where a lot of people know what I believe or they believe in what I believe, but there's still judgment.

I feel like people have weird judgments who are members, but then also people who aren't members who are familiar. I feel like since starting med school, that's been a trend where there'll be people, whether they be classmates or whoever, who will have preconceived notions about who I am as an individual because I rolled with Jesus. I don't know.

It's been interesting and I think sometimes disheartening for me as a progressive member of my faith who has very different beliefs than what maybe some of the cultural norms are, not necessarily what the actual religious beliefs are.

And that's been frustrating, because I feel like what my religion has taught me or what I've gathered . . . which I recognize may not be what everyone gathers from my religion. But what I've gathered is that I'm supposed to love and respect everybody. It doesn't matter who they are. It does not matter what they look like, where they're from, who they love. It does not matter. I am supposed to love and respect them.

And I feel like on top of that, my religion gives me hope that I can change, I can be better, and I can grow every day. That is not the same for everybody else.

But I think where I get frustrated . . . or not frustrated, but maybe just a little disheartened is when people place their expectations on me because of this identity that I have.

I feel like I've feel more constrained by other people's expectations that way. It almost feels like I have forfeited my individual identity or people expect me to have forfeited my individual identity because I am religious. This is one of the identities that I have where it's maybe a bit more of a choice.

What are your thoughts? I feel like we both grew up as members of the Church. You are no longer a member and I still am a member. What's your view looking on the outside?

Cailin: So for me, it was a little bit different. I think I always kind of pretended like I was in it more so because I didn't want to get in trouble, and I already felt like I disappointed people in other aspects of my life, like spirituality. I was like, "This is the one thing. God isn't right in front of me. People can't see if I'm hanging out with God IRL, so I can pretend. I can fake it."

Surprise, surprise, part of my identity . . . this is my podcast now. I'm bi, and so I had a lot of internalized homophobia. And it's not necessarily the teachings of the gospel or anything. It was more so the actions of the people in the Church that made it hard for me to want to go to church.

But then at the end of the day, again, I didn't necessarily believe in God. It's not my bowl, not my shiznit, not my monkeys, not my circus. But I will never . . . just because I'm uncomfortable with being somewhere or I don't necessarily believe something doesn't mean that someone else shouldn't, or that someone else shouldn't get comfort or feel love from something that I don't.

It's not something that I judge other people for, for going. I don't think there's anything wrong with going to church or anything, but it's just not part of my identity anymore. And you don't judge me for that.

Austen: No. At the end of the day, my mode of thinking is that the people that I love and value, it's not that I love and value them because they think the exact same things that I do. I think the least we can do is respect the people around us simply because they are people around us, and that shouldn't be influenced by whatever personal beliefs people have.

I should be extending kindness to everyone no matter where I go. I should have an invested interest in every person around me, and I should leave every interaction, hopefully helping someone feel like they have a new friend, that they have someone who cares about them.

Cailin: Yeah.

Austen: That's just my two cents. Who am I?

Cailin: Who am I?

Embracing Complexity in Identity

Austen: Who am I? But yeah, those are the three identities that I kind of wanted to talk about today. Two of them are static. I am a sister. I will always be a sister. I am a sista and I will always be sista.

Cailin: Yes, you will.

Austen: And then one has the potential to be more fluid, but has also informed so much of my personal identity and how I interact with people around me.

There are parts of my identity that have changed and there are parts that haven't. How I view my identities and the impact that they can have is what's changed the most.

And I think it used to freak me out when I would view part of my identity . . . whether it was being Black and I didn't feel Black enough, or I didn't feel white enough, or I felt like I wasn't a good enough sister, or I was religious, but shared very different beliefs than other people who were in my religion. Whatever it was, I feel like that used to stress me out and I used to think that I wasn't being authentic, I wasn't being true to who I was, or that I couldn't be authentic.

But I feel like as we explore who we are and as we understand the power of the identities that we hold, we can not only be our true authentic selves, but we can create a community in which people feel empowered to do the same. We can create an environment in which people feel like they can be who they actually are. They can take pride in the various identities that they have.

When we are true to ourselves, it only gives us the power and the ability to help other people feel like they can be true to themselves as well.

And so I feel like figuring out who I am has been a continuous process, and I've run the gamut as far as emotions. I've been embarrassed and I've felt guilty and frustrated and a whole bunch of different other things, but I feel like it's all led to the point where I can embrace who I am and I can embrace others for who they are as well.

Cailin: Say it one more time for the people in the back, queen.

Austen: Hey. Anyway, "Bundle of Hers" listeners, I guess we don't want to take too much of your time. Thank you for listening. Cailin, thank you for being here, and chatting with me, and sharing your opinion, and also sharing stories. You're a very good storyteller.

Cailin: Oh, I'm all over the place, but I'll share a story even if no one asks. So I'm happy to be here and to do that for y'all. Thank you so much for having me on this podcast. I've been living, laughing, loving it.

Austen: Amazing, amazing, amazing. Well, listeners, if you're still listening, if you learn anything, just remember there is so much power in your identity regardless of what your identities may be.

Just a reminder, you can listen to "Bundle of Hers" wherever you podcast. We will have an episode come out in two weeks, and we hope that you tune back in. Bye.

Cailin: Bye.