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Welcome to our continuing travels down the "7 Domains of Stuff." As we've been exploring this 7-part podcast on the stuff in our lives, I've been looking around my own shared space in the house in which we have lived for 40 years. There's just too much stuff, and it's all my stuff. It's not my husband's stuff. I'm happy to give away half of it and three-quarters of it, but I just need a little shove, a little guidance, a little encouragement to take the first step.

In today's podcast on the financial domain, I'm not talking about cluttered bank accounts, but the role of professionals that you might hire in helping you to clear the stuff and clear your head.

Dr. Jones: Today, in the virtual Scope studio, we have Julie Hegeman. She is a professional organizer and owner of in San Diego. Welcome to the "7 Domains of Stuff," Julie.

Julie: Thank you so much for having me. I'm glad to be here.

Dr. Jones: Well, we're going to be informal in this, so this will be "The Julie and Kirtly Show." So how did you find yourself in this career?

Julie: I guess it was an idea that . . . I didn't even know this career existed. It was just this idea of, "I like to arrange stuff. I like to line things up. I like to colorize. Wish I could make that into a job." And somehow, I stumbled upon that this really is a job. It really is a career and kind of took off from there. But it was an idea that was in my brain for a very long time before I started my business.

Dr. Jones: What title would you give yourself?

Julie: So professional organizer is the title that people in my profession call ourselves. And when I first started my business 11 years ago, I had some serious imposter syndrome and I could not actually bring myself to call myself a professional organizer. It was a personal organizer.

Dr. Jones: Oh, yeah.

Julie: Then I was doing a little talk for a networking group and I was researching personal organizers, and what came up was the paper that you use in a notebook to keep . . . like a planner. That's a personal organizer. And it was at that time when I said, "Okay, Julie, you need to adopt what you really are. You need to just own that and stop second-guessing yourself."

Dr. Jones: So did you do this for fun or did you do this for friends before you jumped in as a professional?

Julie: Absolutely. I would go to people's homes, friends' homes and say, "Hey, can I clean out your pantry?" "Yes, you can." I was in flow. I just learned about flow, but it's definitely what I was in because I just loved doing it and time would quickly pass. Pretty soon, things were lined up, the cans were colorized, and I just got so much positive feedback. It made me feel so good. And it was that dopamine hit, I guess, that I was looking for.

Dr. Jones: Oh, Julie.

Julie: It reinforced that idea that, "I think I could do this. I think I could make a job out of this." That was probably before I even knew that this career existed.

Dr. Jones: Right. Well, the concept of eudaimonia, or good life or work that's meaningful, is often that work which gets you into flow. Some people are artists and say artists do this. But to be able to totally have time disappear as you're doing something wonderful for other people, making a professional career out of it, that's great.

Julie: Thank you. I feel so grateful and privileged and honored that total strangers invite me into their home to share. I was listening to Ivy in your other podcast. There's a lot of shame associated with what I help people do because they don't want anyone else to see what has happened over time. Sometimes extreme as hoarding, but not usually. Just mess, clutter, dysfunction. And to be allowed in a space like that is really an honor and a privilege.

Dr. Jones: What's the scope of your services?

Julie: Well, I'm not sure we have enough time on this podcast, but I was really naive when I started out. I thought, "Well, I'll just go and work in people's pantries and line up their Campbell's soup cans." And then . . .

Dr. Jones: Too much sodium. Go ahead.

Julie: We won't get into the ingredients. But they started asking me, "Would you do this?" or, "Could you do that?" And I thought, "Well, why not? Yeah." So that just morphed into what I do now.

Everything from cleaning out a single cabinet or tiny closet all the way to downsizing an entire home, supervising the packers, the movers, then assisting on the other end when they move into a home, and then organizing that new home. So we're talking weeks and weeks, sometimes months' worth of work to get clients where they need to be.

Picture someone like yourself, who's been in your home for 40 years. People are overwhelmed. They might not be physically able to do the work. They don't know what to take with them. And they're moving to a retirement community that they can get meals. All they have to do is walk next door. They're not going to need all the pots and pans and all that stuff that we have.

I am "the voice of reason." I put that in quotes. You're not going to be hosting '24 Thanksgiving like you used to. So we can let the turkey roaster go and the Bundt pan and all those things that just will not fit into a teeny tiny kitchen.

It's hard. It's very hard for a lot of people in that situation because there's resistance. They don't want to move. They don't want to let go of their items.

Dr. Jones: When someone's decided to let go of their three different pans and their turkey roaster, where do those things go? I mean, do you run a huge garage sale?

Julie: Well, I am an environmentalist at heart. And so if I can keep stuff out of the landfill, I try my hardest.

So when we're actually going through the decluttering process . . . and I have different words. I use cull, downsize, edit, purge, all those good things. But when we're going through that process, we create categories. And the three basic categories are trash, keep, and maybe recycle and donate, but that's four. There are so many other categories. Returns. Is this hazardous waste? Does this stay with the house if you're selling it for the new owners?

There are just endless amounts of categories. And it's my job to keep all that straight and to keep the client moving forward, because it can get overwhelming for them really quickly.

So I can do pretty much all of it except make decisions for them. I try to keep their energy reserved for decision-making.

And then we just take one step at a time and we just move forward at whatever speed they can do. Everybody is different, of course, in that area, too.

Dr. Jones: Well, it's almost being like a part-time therapist. I was talking to somebody recently who has . . . He's not a hoarder by any stretch of the imagination, but he has collections that are really important to him and are markers of his travels all over the world. But he knows that they occupy not only physical space, but emotional and psychological space, and sometimes a lot of that space.

So you have to help people negotiate with their psychological need for these things, yeah?

Julie: Absolutely. And I encourage all my clients to have a treasure box. I'm a sentimental person. I have things that I love and treasure, but there comes a point where stuff overtakes your life and it's not serving you anymore.

And so that's the hard talk I have with clients. "You have these 10 items, but if there were a fire, which one would you grab? Which one brings you the most joy?" to highlight what Marie Kondo says.

And it's really amazing when people go from, "I need all of this to bring me joy," to three items that really, really spark those memories and make them so happy, and the rest of the counter is clear and they can see those items. It's really amazing to see their reaction and appreciation for those 3 items instead of the 10.

Dr. Jones: But helping people say, "These are your most important treasures, and I will help you even make a little list so you know that your treasures are in here. And your ÑÇÖÞ×ÔοÊÓƵren, when they find this box, know that that's your treasures." Can you tell me a little bit more about your treasure box idea? Because I love that idea.

Julie: So everyone in our family has a treasure box, my husband and I, and our two kids. And nobody gets to tell anyone else what is a treasure. That is up to you.

The size of the container, though, dictates what you can keep. So the smaller the item, the better. Instead of the brochure from the play that you went to, the ticket stub, for instance. It will trigger that memory, "Oh, I loved that play and I went with so and so," but you don't need all of the literature. You just need that one little ticket stub to remind you of that ticket.

So any kind of treasure that is small would be wonderful in that box. A newspaper. You don't need to keep the whole newspaper, but maybe the headline and just to condense it down.

My husband and I have small treasure boxes, but the kids have the size that go under the bed that are originally designed for wrapping paper. It's not something you want to keep out. You just want to know where it is.

So every once in a while, when they're home for Christmas, they're in their 20s now, they will bring those treasure boxes out, and let me tell you, it is just a joy to watch them go through old-school stuff and plays that they were in and trips we took by little trinkets or somehow a memory-triggering whatever it is.

They're labeled with their names on it, as everything should be labeled so that you know where it is, what it is. And yeah, maybe one day when my husband and I are gone and our kids run across our treasure box, it'll be fun for them to look through.

Dr. Jones: Right. And not unmanageable. The house is not a good treasure box.

Julie: No. A ruthless declutter is what I use for my clients when we're decluttering. Be ruthless when you're deciding what is truly a treasure. Make sure that it really, really is.

Dr. Jones: This is the professional side of your job, so you've got this warm person that comes into the house to help people out who is a professional, but then you are a professional. This is the financial domain. You do get paid.

Julie: I do get paid. I have a straight rate of $75 an hour, and I no longer negotiate that. I am very confident in what I do. I know my worth. There are people that charge a little less, but there are people that charge more. And I'm very comfortable.

I've been in business 11 years now. They can see my work online. That's basically all I post is before-and-after pictures. So they can see what I can do.

Dr. Jones: But what's your relationship with your own stuff?

Julie: I think most of my clients assume that I am very neat and I don't have any clutter and my house looks like a showroom. It does not. I do have attachments.

My last parent died a couple years ago, and so we cleared the house. And I was on the other side. I just wanted to save those things because they had such meaning and it was very, very difficult to see them go. We had an estate sale.

I think you asked me about how I let go of things if the dumpster comes, and I don't think I answered that. But one of the things I recommend a lot for my clients is an estate sale. It's a win-win situation if all the stars lined up, and it's a whole other thing.

Dr. Jones: And there are professionals that do just estate sales.

Julie: Absolutely.

Dr. Jones: You can call them and they come in and they put labels on it. They run the whole thing. You can go away for a weekend and they'll do it.

Julie: They want you to go away because they know how hard it is to see those items being sold off for a fraction of what they're worth. But that's the name of the game.

You've got to clear, say, a house. It's a wonderful opportunity to clear, make a little money. So anybody who is in that situation, I highly recommend seeking some estate sale opinions.

Dr. Jones: So, Julie, I think there are people who buy stuff. You may have known people who order things and maybe they never even unpack their boxes. And financially, they've got a lot of money just in boxes in their house. Can you help them either return things or sell things or put them on eBay, give them a chance to get some money in this financial domain?

Julie: Being organized is actually financially savvy because you know what you have, you have that inventory, whatever it is, you know where to find it so you're not repurchasing things. It's also good for the environment because you're not rebuying stuff, but also you're not spending money on multiple items because you can't find them. So that's an advantage of being organized.

Dr. Jones: That's exactly the point. I wanted to get a new pan, and then I do a conversation with myself and I said, "Do I really need this new pan? I have a pan that works just fine." I saw this advertised on my newsfeed, and it would be a really cool pan, but I have a pan. Or I didn't remember that I had that beautiful pot and I don't need another pot.

But maybe you go to your mother's house . . . My mother used to buy things for us, but they would just be in a box and my mom could use that money. If someone came in to help her, she could actually get some money back from the things that she hasn't even opened maybe.

Julie: Yes. I do encourage my clients if it's returnable, and that is often . . . I see boxes that are unopened. "Can this be returned? Is it still within the window?" "Yes." "Okay. Let's put this in your car." I try to set them up for success. "Let's not just leave this at the front door. Let's put it in your car so that when you are driving around and you pass the post office, you don't have a reason . . . No excuses. You're right there."

But as far as selling, man, I wish I had somebody that sells things for clients. It's a common thing that people need. So anybody listening, if you want to make a job out of selling items for other people, there is work for you.

Dr. Jones: There are concierge services of people who do whatever you need. You say, "I don't know how to use eBay or whatever. Just take this and sell it for me." Clearly, if you're doing an estate sale, so if you're planning on leaving most of your stuff behind, then that person will take a certain percent. The person who runs your estate sale will take a certain percent of that, but that can make you a significant amount of money.

Julie: Yes, it can, like I said, if the stars are lined up. If you're having an estate sale, here's something to keep in mind: Don't get rid of anything. No donations. It's counterintuitive. Only the trash goes away. They will sell a half bottle of Windex if you have it. And I'm not making that up. That's totally true.

Dr. Jones: But I think your last comments about how freeing it is and how it's important to know that there are people out there and you can . . . Yes, it costs to hire someone, but the psychological burden of not knowing where your things are, not knowing what you have, being burdened by what you have.

Julie: It's a tremendous amount of stress and embarrassment and shame that goes along with, "I've got too much stuff. I can't find it. I know I have it, but yeah, I don't know where that item is."

I've been lucky enough to help people clear their clutter and it's just such a gift to me. I think I get more out of it than they do sometimes, but I've had happy tears of, "You've given me my space back." And it's really rewarding. It's soul-filling for me to see people move forward in their lives. Life-changing.

I have a story about one of my first clients who I walked into her condo and she was using her oven door, so it's open, as counter. There were papers, there was her purse, because there was no room in her kitchen on the kitchen counters. And she thought that was normal. "Well, there's an additional horizontal surface I can use to put my stuff on."

We cleared that. It took us a while. And she was in awe. From that, the next time I came back, she said, "I want to show you my refrigerator." She opens up the door and she said, "Look at all this healthy food. Now I can prepare food because I have counter space." It snowballed into that.

We worked in her closet. There were clothes everywhere on the couch, spilling out all over. We downsized that. Now she's exercising because she can find her workout clothes in her closet.

So that's what I mean by soul-filling for me. It's, "Oh, my gosh, I have this impact," and it's beyond rewarding for me.

Dr. Jones: Oh, Julie, thanks so much for giving us some insight into what your life is and what a professional can do to help people negotiate with their stuff. And now I think I just want you on retainer.

But if you're listening and you are struggling with your stuff, think about what Julie suggested about finding a professional organizer and just make the call. If you're struggling with the psychological hold that your stuff has over you or someone you know or love, consider listening to our Emotional Domain of Stuff.

You can hear one woman's journey and you can listen to a psychiatrist at the ÑÇÖÞ×ÔοÊÓƵ of Utah talk about how a mental health professional can help people reach out.

You can reach out. You're not alone. Whatever your relationship is with your physical stuff, you are one of a lot of people who are struggling, and there are people who can help. There are professional organizers, there are social workers, there are psychologists who will help you get a clear space so that you can have a life that just moves forward a little bit more smoothly.

So thanks, Julie, for joining us.

Julie: You're welcome. Thanks for having me. Loved it.

Dr. Jones: Yeah. And thanks for being part of the "7 Domains of Women's ÑÇÖÞ×ÔοÊÓƵ."